Open Panzer
Open Panzer Help & Info => Open Panzer Help => Topic started by: Sub on April 08, 2021, 04:49:27 PM
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Hi,
A question for the Master Luke..
Whilst upgrading my Challenger 2 to Open Panzer i have utilised just about all the functions available plus some with some lateral thinking and a bit of my own humble electronic bodgery, however i want to try something else that i have not seen documented any where ( could be i just cannot find it )
Anyway here goes.....
I have the ability to set up mixed channels on my Tx that i can activate via a dual rate switch when i want them and then go back to normal mode... now the big question, would the TCB understand what was going on and mix them on the tank OR would it just confuse the heck out of it OR cause damage ????
I think i am up to about 15 functions at press so any info would be great.
Regards
Sub.
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It is certainly possible to leverage transmitter mixing to expand what is possible, and I don't think you will damage anything by doing so, but depending on what you do you might confuse the TCB a little! :) It helps to have a good understanding of how the TCB works, which I suspect you do.
Maybe if you describe what you are hoping to accomplish I can be of more help?
Note also that it is possible to assign multiple functions to a single switch (or trigger source) in OP Config, sometimes this can be useful if you are running out of controls on your transmitter, but it just depends on what you're doing. I've definitely used 15 functions and more before, so I know how it can be!
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Hi Luke,
Thx for getting back so quickly...
In a nut shell i am trying to mix tank steering with turret movement to replicate a turret lock style feature, i have seen the marvelous systems others have made but thats too complicated for my little brain, so i was wondering if i could mix steering to turret movement so as the tank turned say left the turret turned proportionally right and vica verca the Tx can mix Aileron and Rudder as these are the channels i am using and the dual rate switch on the Tx will turn this on and off when set up, so i can go back to individual movement when turret lock is not needed, or is this a step too far.
Regards.
Sub.
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Not a step too far at all! In fact it is a clever idea. I have always used my thumbs to create the effect you describe but it is not always easy!
As you say, you just need to slave the rudder channel (turret traverse) to the aileron channel (steering). Of course your turret is likely to move at a different speed than your model can perform a neutral turn, but you can compensate for this by adjusting the ratios in the mix. No doubt some experimenting will be needed to get the correct mix, but I think your approach will work very well.
I see no problem with this at all and the TCB won't even know you're doing something fancy on the radio side. For all it knows you are using your two thumbs to give commands to the turret and steering at the same time. The ability to turn the effect off and on using another switch on the transmitter is also a good touch.
Give it a try and let us know what happens! If I see a dark mushroom cloud on the horizon I'll know it was you (just kidding!)
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Hi, Luke.
I managed to apply the settings on the TX and the activation switch , It did work, the only issue is as we thought trying to sync the turret speed as it always moved much earlier than the motors did. I tried altering the percentages of the settings but could not get over the lag of the drive motors, i will keep trying over time to see what can be done. :(
On a positive note i managed to apply a dual rate to the 2 position flap/ Gyro switch that i use for cannon fire and recoil, this now turns that switch into a 3 position switch so i can have cannon fire on the flap switch and independent mg fire on the same switch when the dual rate is applied, so some progress in the end. ;D
Regards.
Sub.
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I managed to apply the settings on the TX and the activation switch , It did work, the only issue is as we thought trying to sync the turret speed as it always moved much earlier than the motors did. I tried altering the percentages of the settings but could not get over the lag of the drive motors, i will keep trying over time to see what can be done. :(
I presume you have disabled any inertia/momentum on the drive motors? Those would cause the drive motors to be slow to start, but they might simply be slower to move anyway since they have a lot more drag to overcome than the turret. As a final hack you could possibly increase the Deadband on the turret rotation channel, which would delay when the turret starts moving, but not its overall speed...
Anyway it is a good effort and you learned some new things about your transmitter.
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Hi,
I have left the inertia at the default settings, i have now uncovered a new issue, when doing a neutral turn going right all is fine both motors move in different directions and at the same speed, however when doing a neutral turn left the inner motor goes into reverse but the outer moror hardly moves until it gets right to the end of the tx travel then only just moves the motor.
I have reset everything on the OP tried a new speed controller and even a new drive motor but to no effect, its weird if the side is going backwards for the turn its fine but when its needed to go forward only in a neutral turn it slows down, normal forward and reverse and moving turns are fine, have i just missed something on setting up ??
Sub.
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Did you the Throttlerange calibration at your ESC ?
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Hi,
Thank you for your reply, i did all the usual calibrations inc the Esc's and all were fine, however this morning i removed both Esc's plus drive motors and set them up again individually with the correct forward and reverse programming on the Tx ( green light for forward and Red for reverse ) made sure the wires to the motors had correct motor orientation ie speedo forward = track forward etc when both set individually they were ok, however when i went to use them in pairs one Esc lagged behind the other on start quite considerably, i re programmed the Esc just as i did the other several times but it just would not wake up at the same time as the other, so i tried each controller into the other port on the TCB to make sure that it was not the TCB which i did not think it was and Hey Presto the same Esc lagged behind again.
The Esc's are the same make, same type and same Amperage so should have worked in sync when the TCB applied power but no.
It took a fair bit of time to find this problem as when each speedo is tested and set up on its own it works fine without any issue its only when you try and match it to its counterpart.
I removed both speedos and fitted another " pair " same make type etc and tested again, both this time very virtually exactly in sync, plus the low speed movement now is awesome, very slow turns and movement is achievable which previously was not.
All this was tested with Neutral turn disabled, but the turns left / right with the inner track stopped were the best they have ever been and virtually neutral in diameter, i will re enable neutral turn on the OPZ when i get time but i think this issue may now be solved, all down to an ESC not working within tolerance of an exact counterpart.
Hope this helps someone that may encounter a similar issue, don't assume two exact speedos work exactly the same and initiate movement of the motor at the same time.
Regards to all
Sub.
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Ps.
I might now have more chance of syncing the turret to the turns now...time will tell.
Sub.
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Hi Sub, thanks for the doing all that troubleshooting work and reporting back, it certainly could help someone else in the future. Out of curiosity, what ESCs were they? In my testing even the cheap Chinese ESCs seem to be pretty well matched but there is always a first time for everything.
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Hi Luke,
They were Mtroniks 15 amp Vipers been ok before.
I have just done a stupid thing whilst connecting my TCB to the computer i forgot to switch on my TX now it says cannot read radio, the TCB can upload to the OPZ and i can alter things on it and it will accept the commands but will not read the radio its just flashing all the lights for radio signal failure, i have removed and checked the RX its fine, sorry to be a pain but i had just got everything sorted.
now need some serious help. :'(
Sub.
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I have just done a stupid thing whilst connecting my TCB to the computer i forgot to switch on my TX now it says cannot read radio, the TCB can upload to the OPZ and i can alter things on it and it will accept the commands but will not read the radio its just flashing all the lights for radio signal failure, i have removed and checked the RX its fine
That's not a stupid thing, you are allowed to connect to the computer with the radio off, that's fine, I do it all the time.
When you say "it can't read the radio," do you mean that you are trying to run through Radio Setup in OP Config and that is where you are getting the message? Or do you mean more generally, even when not connected to the computer, your TCB is not recognizing your receiver?
What transmitter and receiver are you using? Did you maybe accidentally change a setting so the receiver is no longer in PPM/SBus/iBus mode?
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Hi Luk,
its a Spektrum DX6i with an orange receiver running through the top set of plugs on the TCB, i cannot get any radio connection at all it just wont see the radio at all
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What is the exact model number of your receiver?
We know it worked before, so something has changed. You need to try to figure out what that might have been!
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Hi Luke,
I have managed to resurect it, :) I had not changed anything on the TX, TCB or anything at all, It just threw a complete wobbler when i plugged it into the Computer and onto the OP without the radio switched on.
I pressed the reset button and down loaded an OPZ file I had saved and wrote it back to the TCB, it then started to work but all my radio settings were off so I then had to do a full radio re cal and its now back but it had reversed some of my settings ??.
don't know if it overloaded something and has had time to reset ?
So I have no idea but at least its now running again sort off, I need a lay down.
Sub.
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Yes, go take a lay down! :) Who can say what happened...
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Hi,
Well i had my lay down, head ache has now gone so back to it, i still cannot get the neutral turn to function correctly, it will work one way but not the other, i also noticed that when going in reverse it slightly turns to one side, but going forwards its as straight as an arrow, i will try the Esc's direct off the Rx by passing the TCB to see if they work fine, if so it must be down possibly to some wiring conflict with motor rotation / set up.
With neutral turn disabled the tank turns on a sixpence each way with the inner turn track stationary both at speed and very slow, its most frustrating.
All the radio settings on the OPZ appear fine and calibrated.
I will look inside one of my other tanks with a TCB with same make of Esc's to see if i can see any glaring motor wiring differences.
This one is proving to be a right pain to set up, all the others have been a doddle to do (6)..most likely operator error (me) lol.
Sub.
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As you know the neutral turn on the TCB is defined as a turn command with no (zero) throttle command. Otherwise if it detects any throttle (forward or reverse), it will instead just perform a regular turn. There are actually various kinds of "normal" turns possible (Turn Mode), but at any rate, if any forward or back is detected it will not be a "neutral" turn where one track is moving at the exact same speed as the other track in the opposite direction.
Therefore, the first thing to check when neutral turns don't seem to work correctly, is whether we are accidentally in any way sending a throttle command, however small, since this will negate the effect.
We have several ways to confirm whether what we are "telling" the TCB and what it is "hearing" are the same thing. The quickest and easiest are the onboard green and red LEDs. If the TCB is performing a neutral turn, one or the other will blink (red for left, green for right). So if you can try doing your neutral turn that doesn't seem to be working, and you notice one of the LEDs is in fact solid, then you can deduce that somehow a throttle command is being sent against your wishes. The other way to confirm what is going on is to use Snoop, which I always recommend to everybody.
There are several reasons why throttle commands might be being sent even if you don't think they are: A) the TCB hasn't got your throttle channel center point memorized correctly, B) you accidentally or otherwise applied some trim or subtrim to the throttle channel on your transmitter, or C) your radio system is not perfectly stable and so even when the throttle stick is left untouched the signal is kind of wandering around a bit and the TCB interprets this as forward or reverse.
The fixes for these three are A) re-save your stick centers in OP Config, B) check the trim/subtrim on your transmitter (best to do this first in fact), and for C) you can increase the deadband on your throttle channel.
But first as I say, check the LEDs or Snoop to see whether the TCB is doing what you are telling it or doing something else.
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Another thought - I have gone and read the manual for your Viper ESCs. They require a calibration routine to set their end-points, which is somewhat inconvenient to do with something like the TCB. Also, if you have Speed Limits set in OP Config (for example, slower in reverse than forward), and then you did the ESC calibration, that is quite likely to give you uneven neutral turns.
It would probably be best to remove the TCB entirely from the equation while doing the ESC calibration. Make sure the end points in your transmitter are set to +/- 100% for the throttle channel, plug the ESC directly into the throttle channel on your receiver, and perform the Viking calibration. Then do the second ESC, also plugged directly into the throttle channel of your receiver. After both calibrations are done, now you can connect the ESCs to the TCB and see if that helps anything.
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Hi,
an other way...
try a higher value for deadcenter on throttle:
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Hi.
Thx for all your time and great info chaps all good valid points that i will try, one thing that stuck out reading the advice was that i did calibrate the ESC's connected to the TCB and i do have forwward and reverse speed difference set to 100% forward 50% reverse.
I will check the TCB lights and snoop ASAP, from memory i think they were all fine last time i connected the TCB and all radio settings were at center, but i will re do them again and everything as per your advice.
Regards.
Sub.
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Hi luke.
Powered up the TCB.
Snoop shows motor forward green LED lights solid, reverse red LED lights solid shown on snoop forward and reverse, snoop shows neutral turn engaged both ways and LEDS flash in TCB, when neutral turn is initiated
HOWEVER When i commence a LEFT neutral turn the GREEN LED flashes, when i commence a right neutral turn the RED flashes
Which is reversed from your post above
( green led flash for right and red led flash for left )
The neutral turn on the TCB appear to be reversed.
Have we found the issue ??
I will attach some screen shots of the snoop screen if i can
Sub.
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Hi luke.
Powered up the TCB.
Snoop shows motor forward green LED lights solid, reverse red LED lights solid shown on snoop forward and reverse, snoop shows neutral turn engaged both ways and LEDS flash in TCB, when neutral turn is initiated
HOWEVER When i commence a LEFT neutral turn the GREEN LED flashes, when i commence a right neutral turn the RED flashes
Which is reversed from your post above
( green led flash for right and red led flash for left )
The neutral turn on the TCB appear to be reversed.
Have we found the issue ??
I will attach some screen shots of the snoop screen if i can
Sub.
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Hi,
I have gone into the OP radio and reversed the steering channel now it shows RED flash for LEFT neutral turn and GREEN flash for RIGHT neutral turn.
I will re cal the speedos to the RX off the TCB and remove the wires from the motors and re attach them to correspond with left / right turn movements on the TCB.
Do you think that should fix the problem.
Sub.
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The values in the first picture of the four stickchannels all different.
I think the stick calibration in your Transmitter is wrong.
Look at this:
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Hi,
Thx for the vid, i was already aware of the stick calibration thx, mine are not that far out of alignment yet to justify altering every models settings for a minor variance, the monitor on my screen looks ok at present.
I have finally sorted everything out, i have full forward and reverse that corresponds to the correct TCB commands and correct left / right equal neutral turns.
It was down to the radio set up on the OPC, with my radio when the steering channel in my case Aerilon is set to normal it actually reverses the neutral turn functions ie green flashing instead of Red and red instead of green, so i reversed the steering channel so the neutral turn direction corresponded correctly on the TCB, ( my radio sticks were always left for left and right for right) then i set up each speed controller to that setting and solded the wires back to the motors to give correct rotation according to the TCB neutral turn settings and it was perfect then.
It was you luke that gave me the correct led colour flash for left / right neutral turn that made me spot it straight away.
I have since read the Wiki over again and found the picture of the LED lights and it shows you on that, but i did not find it written anywhere else on the wiki when reading the neutral turn set up or radio set up, ( i will stand corrected if i have missed that too ) If its not maybe you could just pop it in somewhere on the written set up steps, just a thought...
I would like to thank you both for your time and patience on this issue, i was sure it was the set up and not any fault of the TCB as i have done quite a few and not encountered this before.
Cheers.
Happy tankin.
Sub.
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I'm glad you were able to get everything sorted out. Getting the directions right with a tank model can be confusing as you have found, because it is possible to have reversed channels and things seem to work most of the time but then when doing neutral turns suddenly it seems not to work. The best approach is as you have done, do the Radio Setup first and confirm that when you move the stick forward or right OP Config says "forward" or "right," and then wire the motors so they turn the correct direction.
You are right, the LED graphic only showed up on the Board Layout page in the Wiki. I've added it a few other locations as well and hopefully that will help others.
And happy tankin to you!