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Offline johnnyvd

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Track/Chassis Recoil Request
« on: August 08, 2017, 03:29:15 PM »
It seems a stupid request as a lot of people have tried their best in eliminating this from the Taigen/Henglong RX18.

But i have a StuiG 33b (Sturm-Infanteriegeschütz 33B) in the works which has a big kickback with its 150mm gun and small chassis.

I eventually got a big fan of the way the "15cm sIG 33 auf Fahrgestell Panzerkampfwagen II" (named Sturmgeschütz II in-game) kicks back in the Warthunder game. Maybe not completely realistic, but it just looks cool.

Would it be possible to add a trigger and an adjustable profile like, not back and forward like the Henglon, but only backwards or long "stroke fast" backward and "short stroke" slowly forward?
* E-75 / E-100 PAK44 "monster" - in progress
* Sturmjagdtiger PAK44 - in progress
* pz.kpfw KV-2 754(r) - in progress
* T-34 88mm "Kurland Tiger" - in progress

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Offline LukeZ

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Re: Track/Chassis Recoil Request
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2017, 03:58:26 PM »
Believe it or not, you aren't the first to ask about this. It's true most people can't wait to get rid of track recoil, but for some cases it might be good to have and it should also be possible to create an effect that is not so drastic or ridiculous as the Heng Long version.

I have added this to the TCB To-Do List. I have thought about it on occasion and realized it could be somewhat complicated to implement. But I have not yet sat down and tried to write anything for it, and sometimes what seems like a difficult coding challenge is not so bad after you start.

I can't say when I will get to this but I do agree it is a worthwhile feature to have, especially as the user could choose to enable or disable it. More options is more better.
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Offline johnnyvd

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Re: Track/Chassis Recoil Request
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2017, 04:26:11 PM »
Great, i found an example of the Sig33 on the Panzer I chassis: the Bison. Halfway the video you can see how much the 15cm gun kicks back this little chassis.

* E-75 / E-100 PAK44 "monster" - in progress
* Sturmjagdtiger PAK44 - in progress
* pz.kpfw KV-2 754(r) - in progress
* T-34 88mm "Kurland Tiger" - in progress

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Offline johnnyvd

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Re: Track/Chassis Recoil Request
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2017, 03:57:27 PM »
And to just make my point: here a video on how this kickback looks on the Sturmpanzer II in Warthunder!


It would be really cool if this would work..

And Luke, i'm working on soundfiles for the Cannon sounds. I try to integrate a shell dropping sound and maybe "cannon loaded" or "ready".. But i wonder if it is possible to randomly choose between different sound files for the cannon firing? Otherwise it would get really boring to hear the same remark over and over again..

(for the sounds i'm referring to the Open Panzer Sound Card)
* E-75 / E-100 PAK44 "monster" - in progress
* Sturmjagdtiger PAK44 - in progress
* pz.kpfw KV-2 754(r) - in progress
* T-34 88mm "Kurland Tiger" - in progress

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Offline LukeZ

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Re: Track/Chassis Recoil Request
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2017, 03:36:36 PM »
And Luke, i'm working on soundfiles for the Cannon sounds. I try to integrate a shell dropping sound and maybe "cannon loaded" or "ready".. But i wonder if it is possible to randomly choose between different sound files for the cannon firing? Otherwise it would get really boring to hear the same remark over and over again..
I've increased the number of cannon sounds from 1 to 5.

Thanks for the track recoil video, that will be useful. I haven't forgotten it, it's on the list, but that one is not a quick change.
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Offline johnnyvd

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Re: Track/Chassis Recoil Request
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2017, 08:55:50 AM »
Yay! Track recoil is implemented! Great, can't wait to test..
* E-75 / E-100 PAK44 "monster" - in progress
* Sturmjagdtiger PAK44 - in progress
* pz.kpfw KV-2 754(r) - in progress
* T-34 88mm "Kurland Tiger" - in progress

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Offline LukeZ

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Re: Track/Chassis Recoil Request
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2017, 12:33:08 PM »
Yes, I added an implementation of track recoil. See the help files in the updated version of OP Config (or in the Wiki) for the new settings on the Driving tab.

I've also attached a spreadsheet that might help you visualize what the settings do. Basically you specify a starting kick-back speed, and a deceleration factor. Motor speed is set to the initial speed then exponentially decreased by some ratio influenced by the factor you've chosen. Higher factors cause the kickback to last longer, and decelerate slower.

The effect is never going to look anything as good as the video you posted. The suspension in our models is too stiff, and our gearboxes geared way too low for the acceleration needed. As with the Heng Long/Taigen models, it basically just looks like you've driven backwards a bit.

Also, one big caveat - I've programmed the track recoil to only work when the vehicle is stopped (and you've enabled the effect). No track recoil occurs while driving.

What would really look better is some kind of suspension articulation. There were some fascinating 1/35 models shown on RCU a while back that implemented this, see here. Programmatically something like this is possible with the TCB, but the mechanical challenges of getting it to work in 1/16th scale, given the weight and types of suspension typically used, would probably make it an impractical endeavor.

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TrackRecoil.xls
(70.5 kB ~ Downloads: 423)
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Offline jhamm

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Re: Track/Chassis Recoil Request
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2017, 02:24:25 PM »
Hi,
Track recoil is for the transmission an unusually very high load.
For the very simple cheap transmission is not recommendable, so they are very quickly broken...
I would not do this with very heavy model tanks too.

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Offline johnnyvd

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Re: Track/Chassis Recoil Request
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2017, 02:29:09 PM »
I can imagine that is does not make much sense to let a big tank like the KV-2 or Tiger II kick back.
That is why i set the example of the "small tanks with big guns" like the Bison and sturmpanzer II.

Could show some more video's of "bigger" tanks firing like the Tiger II to show example..

For me i just got amazed on how the kickback looked on the Sturmpanzer II.. Just awesome ;)

And don't forget that with a heavy full metal tank every movement is big stress on the gearboxes. Just make sure they do not have too much play. If the teeth of the gears get a chance to have a nice acceleration they will collide (and break)..
* E-75 / E-100 PAK44 "monster" - in progress
* Sturmjagdtiger PAK44 - in progress
* pz.kpfw KV-2 754(r) - in progress
* T-34 88mm "Kurland Tiger" - in progress

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Offline johnnyvd

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Re: Track/Chassis Recoil Request
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2017, 02:34:12 PM »
Also, one big caveat - I've programmed the track recoil to only work when the vehicle is stopped (and you've enabled the effect). No track recoil occurs while driving.

That is not a big problem i guess.. Not many WWII tanks would have accurate firing while driving.
And imagine those three guys full speed in the Sturmpanzer II bouncing around in their metal bucket and then firing that big 150mm gun.. I would need an extra servo to eject those guys.. ;)
* E-75 / E-100 PAK44 "monster" - in progress
* Sturmjagdtiger PAK44 - in progress
* pz.kpfw KV-2 754(r) - in progress
* T-34 88mm "Kurland Tiger" - in progress

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Offline johnnyvd

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Re: Track/Chassis Recoil Request
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2017, 03:01:58 PM »
Here you go with the movies:

Tiger II

VK 4501

pzkpfw. kv-2 754 kickback

Panzer II DAK
* E-75 / E-100 PAK44 "monster" - in progress
* Sturmjagdtiger PAK44 - in progress
* pz.kpfw KV-2 754(r) - in progress
* T-34 88mm "Kurland Tiger" - in progress

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Offline LukeZ

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Re: Track/Chassis Recoil Request
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2020, 12:50:45 PM »
An update to the track recoil action - in this recent thread, Jerry mentioned that the Open Panzer implementation of track recoil was not very effective on his model, and he compared it to the track recoil on the Clark board.

As described above, my implementation allowed a starting speed to be set, and also a deceleration factor that would determine how quickly the motors would exponentially return to a stop.

The Clark method is simply a brief on/off - set the motors to reverse, wait a very short amount of time (25mS or 1/40th of a second), then turn them off.

I've decided to do away with my original complicated version and just offer the more simple on/off track recoil like Clark's, and which is probably how everyone else does it too.

The user can still adjust the parameters on the Driving tab of OP Config - we have a "Kickback speed" as before, which is what level of reverse throttle to send to the motors. But instead of the deceleration factor, we now have simply "Kickback duration" which is how long the signal should be sent and which can range up to 250 mS (1/4 of a second).

These changes are in effect with TCB firmware / OP Config versions 0.93.68.
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