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Offline Lotuswins

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Track Recoil fine tuning
« on: January 04, 2020, 09:11:27 PM »
Hi Luke,

I hope your holidays were pleasant.

I'm working on fine tuning the recoil on my TCBs, but I can't seem to get it right.

I have a T55A by Hooben with a Clark TK22 board that its only redeeming quality is the recoil.  The tank will not move, but rocks back on the suspension as the barrel retracts, and this is the best recoil action of all my tanks. 

When adjusting the TCBs, the deceleration factor at level one is too wimpy, but when I boost the velocity percent, the tank will then move back too far.  Would it be possible to get a smaller increment of deceleration factor so I can boost the velocity up and get it to rock back?  As Kevin at RCTanks Australia used to describe it as a "Jab back" for a proper recoil action.

Thanks, and I hope things are well in France.  Jerry

PS: I tried to upload a short .MOV file, but apparently that isn't allowed.  I guess a U-tube video is the only option?

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Offline LukeZ

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Re: Track Recoil fine tuning
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2020, 05:28:38 AM »
Hi Jerry, I hope the holidays were good for you as well, and happy new year.

As you've described there are two parameters that can be adjusted, one is the kickback speed (the starting speed of the recoil action, the speed quickly decreases from this point as the effect transpires) and the other is the deceleration factor (how quickly the speed decreases, which basically determines the duration of the effect). It is important to experiment with both as it is the combination of both that creates the effect.

I understand you're setting the deceleration factor at its lowest setting (1 out of 100), and that is not enough time at a low kickback speed, but when the kickback speed is increased the movement is too great. I guess there is no middle ground of kickback speed that seems to work well?

Have you tried instead increasing the deceleration factor from 1 up to 20, 40, 60 or so, and compensating by decreasing the kickback speed?

Nevertheless it is possible for me to adjust the scale of the deceleration factor so that 1 equals an even shorter amount of time than it does now, and I don't mind doing that, in fact I will do that but it may be a few days before I post a firmware update (been working on some other small changes elsewhere which are not yet finished).

You're right, the only way to display videos here is to put them on YouTube or Vimeo first, it's not practical to host and stream them using the forum software.
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Offline Lotuswins

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Re: Track Recoil fine tuning
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2020, 02:41:36 PM »
Hi Luke,

Thanks for the reply, here is the video link:
of my T55A recoil.  Note how quick the body of the tank reacts, and the barrel recoils but the tank doesn't move.  I really would like to update the control to a TCB, but I can't give up the recoil  :'(

If you can add a shorter decel factor in the next update, that would be grand. 

Jerry

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Offline Lotuswins

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Re: Track Recoil fine tuning
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2020, 02:49:27 PM »
Hi again, sorry I forgot to reply to what I have tried.  I have moved both factors around, and so far the best I get is a decel factor of 2 (1 seems to be a little inconsistent) and a velocity of 20 percent.  At this setting, the tracks just barely move back, but the body of the tank doesn't really react like with the Clark.   Once I increase velocity to about 50 the tank reacts with enough energy, but then it will move back a few inches.     Jerry

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Offline LukeZ

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Re: Track Recoil fine tuning
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2020, 09:30:49 AM »
Hi Jerry, thanks for that video of the Clark action, I can see the different method used. His track recoil seems to be a rather straightforward and simple implementation, but it may nevertheless be better for it in the end. Possibly I tried to get too fancy. I've attached a graphical representation of what the Open Panzer track recoil looks like compared to what I think is how Clark is doing it.

In the Open Panzer implementation the Kickback Speed is how high the reverse speed spike is to begin with. The Deceleration Factor determines how quickly the spike fades out (within a range, even the lowest user value for deceleration factor still results in a fairly swift return to zero speed).

Anyway what I've done for now is to expand the range for this deceleration factor, so now if you select 2 for example that will be much quicker than 2 was in the prior firmware. You can give it a try and see if it helps.

Because of various other background changes not related to this issue you'll need to update both OP Config and the firmware on your TCB to the latest version.
OP_vs_Clark.jpg
Track Recoil fine tuning OP_vs_Clark.jpg
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Offline Lotuswins

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Re: Track Recoil fine tuning
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2020, 03:42:52 PM »
Hi Luke,

I played around with your setting changes, but though a little improved its still not acting like the Clark:


Here is my best at the settings on a TCB controlled T55A though the gearboxes are different, and it has plastic tracks.  Settings are 1/50 I believe and the tank moves two links back. 

Can I hook up a scope to try and capture the pulse the Clark is producing?  Not sure if I can do that, but will give it a go if you feel it will help.

Jerry

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Offline Lotuswins

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Re: Track Recoil fine tuning
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2020, 08:01:17 PM »
Luke,

As a side note on the latest changes, now the smoker switch is in the enable position initially even though it shows disabled in snoop.  Once the switch is cycled, it can be disabled/enabled okay, its just in the wrong position initially.  I recall this has been an issue in the past with the airsoft switch. 

Keep up the great work. 

Jerry

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Offline LukeZ

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Re: Track Recoil fine tuning
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2020, 12:00:17 AM »
Can I hook up a scope to try and capture the pulse the Clark is producing?  Not sure if I can do that, but will give it a go if you feel it will help.
If you have the means and the desire that would be an interesting test, I would be interested in both the duration of the pulse as well as its absolute magnitude (ie, is he sending full battery voltage or something less).

The gearboxes will definitely make a difference. At a deceleration factor of 1, the recoil action on the TCB is now only 1/8 of a second long (or should be). If your tank is moving back that much at only half speed (50%) in 1/8 of a second, I would guess the gearboxes on your TCB T55 are much lower ratio than the ones on your Clark T55.

Anyway, it would be possible to change the recoil action to a simple pulse of which you specify the duration and the speed, but that's just something I need to work on.

Several changes were recently made to the smoker object so I am not surprised you have encountered the issue of incorrect initialization. I will look into that and see what's going on.

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Offline Lotuswins

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Re: Track Recoil fine tuning
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2020, 05:34:09 PM »
Hi Luke,

You were right, it is full battery and if I got this right, it is 25ms long.  Just a square wave, nothing fancy.  Took me a while to figure out how to get the scope to measure just a pulse (I actually had to read the bloody instructions  :o). 

Thanks, Jerry

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Offline LukeZ

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Re: Track Recoil fine tuning
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2020, 08:26:57 AM »
Thanks for that info Jerry. I believe I will change the existing arrangement to one where the user specifies the amount (speed) and time, with no fancy tapering. Yours are the only comments I've heard about the track recoil so far, and probably the simpler process is better.

I'm not likely to get to this for the next few weeks, but when it is ready to test I'll let you know.
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Offline Lotuswins

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Re: Track Recoil fine tuning
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2020, 09:31:24 PM »
Thank you Luke, yet again!!

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Offline LukeZ

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Re: Track Recoil fine tuning
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2020, 05:06:42 AM »
As a side note on the latest changes, now the smoker switch is in the enable position initially even though it shows disabled in snoop.  Once the switch is cycled, it can be disabled/enabled okay, its just in the wrong position initially.  I recall this has been an issue in the past with the airsoft switch.
Hi Jerry, I've done a test with my TCB where I've assigned two sides of a 2-position switch to the "Smoker - Enable" and "Smoker - Disable" functions. I put the switch in the Disable position on my transmitter, then power up the TCB and start the engine, and the smoker remains off and I didn't have to toggle the switch. So it seems to be working for me.

You say "even though it shows disabled in snoop" - do you mean you get a message in Snoop that shows it read your switch as being in the Off position and the smoker still starts? Or are you just referring to the fact the Snoop shows you what functions you have defined?

Can you post your OPZ file on that tank, and also, what radio system are you using with it? (specifically, are you using one of those PWM-to-PPM converter boxes here).
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Offline Lotuswins

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Re: Track Recoil fine tuning
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2020, 04:28:12 PM »
Not a converter, but an Sbus system:  Turnigy 9x/XJT

Snoop:

Radio Ready - SBus

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FIRMWARE VERSION: 0.93.67 (EEPROM Size: 481)

---------------------------------------------
RADIO INFO - SBus
---------------------------------------------
Stick       Min    Center   Max    Deadband  Reversed
---------------------------------------------
Throttle    989    1500     2012    25        FALSE
Turn        989    1502     2012    25        FALSE
Elevation  1024    1500     1976    25        FALSE
Azimuth    1023    1500     1976    25        FALSE

Aux Chan.   Min     Max     Type
---------------------------------------------
1           988     2012    Digital
2           988     2012    Digital
3           988     2012    Analog
4           988     2012    Digital
5           880     1500    Analog
6           880     1500    Analog
7           880     1500    Analog
8           880     1500    Analog
9           880     1500    Analog
10          880     1500    Analog
11          880     1500    Analog
12          880     1500    Analog
---------------------------------------------
Channels detected: 16
Channels utilized: 16

---------------------------------------------
MOTOR TYPES
---------------------------------------------
Drive Motors:      Sabertooth Serial
Turret Rotation:   Onboard Motor Driver (A)
Barrel Elevation:  Onboard Motor Driver (B)
Mechanical Barrel: Airsoft (Disabled)

---------------------------------------------
DRIVE SETTINGS
---------------------------------------------
Vehicle Type:           Tank
Active Driving Profile: 1
Accel Ramp Enabled:     No
Decel Ramp Enabled:     No
Motor Nudge Enabled:    No
Forward Speed Limited:  Yes - 90%
Reverse Speed Limited:  Yes - 40%
Transmission Type:      Automatic
Shift Time:             0.0 sec
Engine Pause Time:      0.0 sec
Transmission Delay:     0.0 sec
Neutral Turn Allowed:   No
Turn Mode:              2
Track Recoil Enabled:   Yes (Kickback speed 100%, Deceleration factor 2)

---------------------------------------------
TURRET SETTINGS
---------------------------------------------
Turret Rotation Speed Limited:  Yes - 80%
Barrel Elevation Speed Limited: Yes - 75%
Recoil delay:                   No

---------------------------------------------
SMOKER
---------------------------------------------
Smoker Type:          Combined Heat & Fan
Pre-heat delay:       N/A
Fan idle speed:       100%   Heat: Same as fan
Fan fast idle speed:  100%   Heat: Same as fan
Fan max speed:        100%   Heat: Same as fan
Smoke when destroyed: 100%

---------------------------------------------
BATTLE INFO
---------------------------------------------
Is Repair Tank?   No
Fire Protocol:    Tamiya
Hit Protocol 2:   Taigen V1
Repaired by:      IBU Repair
Send MG IR Code:  No
Accept MG Damage: No
Damage Profile:   Tamiya Spec
Weight Class:     Heavy
(9 cannon hits, 9.0 sec reload, 10.0 sec recovery)

---------------------------------------------

SOUND CARD
---------------------------------------------
Sound card: Taigen Sound Card

---------------------------------------------
FUNCTION TRIGGERS
---------------------------------------------
Turret stick functions: Yes
Turret movement delay:  0.35 sec
Turret Stick - Top Left       -> Function #1   - Engine - Toggle On/Off
Turret Stick - Top Right      -> Function #7   - Cannon Fire
Turret Stick - Bottom Right   -> Function #16  - Light 1 (Headlights) - Toggle On/Off
Aux Channel  2 - Pos 2 (of 2) -> Function #11  - Machine Gun - Fire
Aux Channel  2 - Pos 1 (of 2) -> Function #12  - Machine Gun - Stop
Aux Channel  3 - Variable     -> Function #56  - RC Output 2 - Pass-through
Aux Channel  1 - Pos 2 (of 2) -> Function #13  - Airsoft/Mech Recoil - Enable
Aux Channel  1 - Pos 1 (of 2) -> Function #14  - Airsoft/Mech Recoil - Disable
Aux Channel  4 - Pos 2 (of 2) -> Function #82  - Smoker - Enable
Aux Channel  4 - Pos 1 (of 2) -> Function #83  - Smoker - Disable

---------------------------------------------
BATTERY
---------------------------------------------
Battery Detected: Yes
Voltage:          7.67v
LVC Enabled:      Yes (6.3v cutoff)

---------------------------------------------
BAUD RATES
---------------------------------------------
USB Serial Baud:   115200
Motor Serial Baud: 38400
Aux Serial Baud:   115200
Serial 3 Tx Baud:  38400

---------------------------------------------
MG Stop
Airsoft - Disabled
Smoker disabled
 

Note: smoker comes on on engine start....so not sure the difference betwixt yours and mine.....but all mine that I've messed with since the upgrade have the smoker come on initially.... hmmmm

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Offline Lotuswins

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Re: Track Recoil fine tuning
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2020, 08:09:02 PM »
I would like to attach the .opz file.....however, it seems to be hidden.  I can find it in opconfig.exe....but not when trying to attach it in the below attachments and other options.  Sigh......

Okay, figured a way by sending it to my documents folder, then it will see the darn thing......

jerry

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KingTiger.opz
(23.56 kB ~ Downloads: 55)

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Offline LukeZ

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Re: Track Recoil fine tuning
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2020, 12:55:16 PM »
Hi Jerry, I've posted updated TCB firmware and OP Config software - version 0.93.68 for both.

The track recoil option has been simplified to the Clark approach. On the Driving tab of OP Config you will still see a "Kickback speed" setting, which is the level of reverse throttle you want to send to the motors for the track recoil movement (to copy Clark, set this to 100%).

The old deceleration factor has been removed and instead the second setting is now simply "Kickback duration" in milliseconds, up to a maximum of 250 mS (1/4 of a second). To match Clark you would set this to 25 (1/40th of a second as per your measurement). I will be interested to hear if you are now able to replicate the action you were wanting.

I also did discover a bug in the smoker startup code which I believe should now be corrected, so you can test that problem as well and let me know if it is fixed.
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